Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: 40 or 50mm butt ring?

  1. #1
    Elite (Bronze)
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Crawley
    Posts
    1,725

    Default 40 or 50mm butt ring?

    Im just about to buy a Freespirit spomb rod which I intend to pair with a Shimano Aerlex 10000xt spod reel with braid. Is there any benefit of having a 50mm butt ring on this combination as I have heard conflicting ideas about line frap/distance differences regarding 40mm and 50mm rings. Any help gratefully received.

  2. #2
    Elite (Gold) kapscarper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    6,348

    Default

    No benefit whatsoever. With mono maybe but your braid knot will be tiny. 50s just cost more....easier to break and a nightmare to transport
    Edited for the sensitive prissy meow meows we entertain

  3. #3
    Elite (Gold) kapscarper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    6,348

    Default

    My spomb rod has a 40 and I use it with 20lb whiplash and I can honestly say I haven't retired my leader in at least 7 years!! My leader is almost white where it's so old and has never EVER snapped
    Edited for the sensitive prissy meow meows we entertain

  4. #4
    Elite (Bronze)
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Crawley
    Posts
    1,725

    Default

    Thanks Kapscarper. I thought the 40mm was adequate so will go with that.

  5. #5
    Elite (Gold) Elty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Molesey
    Posts
    4,943

    Default

    What knot?
    Pink reel seats on your rods?!
    -------------
    "I like netting your fish...DROP OFF YOU SIMMO...."

  6. #6
    Elite (Gold) kapscarper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    6,348

    Default

    Leader knot. Back to back grinner for me
    Edited for the sensitive prissy meow meows we entertain

  7. #7
    Site Regular kevan67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    833

    Default

    There was a link or an article on here by Terry Edmonds around frapping and he said 40mm and a baby big size spool was ideal. 50mm and big pits where not a requirement for long distance casting.

    A decent leader knot and you are good to go.

  8. #8
    Elite (Gold) kapscarper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    6,348

    Default

    It's fashion over functionality
    Edited for the sensitive prissy meow meows we entertain

  9. #9
    Site Regular yonny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nothants
    Posts
    304

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kevan67 View Post
    There was a link or an article on here by Terry Edmonds around frapping and he said 40mm and a baby big size spool was ideal.
    That's true but when asked he always advises to get 50's as they can do everything where 40's potentially cannot.

    Personally I don't think it makes much of a difference unless you're looking to cast monster distances.

  10. #10
    Platinum jeames's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    on the naughty step...again in bucks
    Posts
    8,070

    Default

    50mm butts for me these days

    Using 20lb mono straight through at 100 yards flies through easier.
    thank your mother for the rabbits...

    rex hunt

  11. #11
    Elite (Gold) kapscarper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    6,348

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yonny View Post
    That's true but when asked he always advises to get 50's as they can do everything where 40's potentially cannot.

    Personally I don't think it makes much of a difference unless you're looking to cast monster distances.
    He told me 40s when I was with him
    Edited for the sensitive prissy meow meows we entertain

  12. #12
    Site Regular kevan67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kevan67 View Post
    There was a link or an article on here by Terry Edmonds around frapping and he said 40mm and a baby big size spool was ideal. 50mm and big pits where not a requirement for long distance casting.

    A decent leader knot and you are good to go.
    Found the article and it was Mark Tunley and not Terry Edmonds.

  13. #13
    Elite (Bronze)
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Crawley
    Posts
    1,725

    Default

    Thanks guys.

  14. #14
    Elite (Bronze)
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Weymouth
    Posts
    2,200

    Default

    Never one to jump on a bandwagon but will not go back to 40's any time soon.
    Visit Our Love Of Carp on Facebook and Instagram

  15. #15
    Beginner Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Using the Shimano Aerlex 10000 XTB, I would go with a 50mm butt guide.

    Great reel, and a real workhorse, because of it’s spool size, and stem length (stand off) i think it would better suit a 50mm than a 40mm, there are other variables to take into account but, just an opinion.

  16. #16
    Elite (Gold) JSlinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Bridgnorth
    Posts
    6,572

    Default

    I have used both the Tourney 6k and ISO with my Torrix that have 50mms and have NOT suffered as a result. Then again my balisters have 40mms and when using the tourneys which for distance and line BS (20lb line rather than 15lb line) leave the Torrix cold I do wounder if 50s would benefit them.
    The balisters are 13’ and I think are 3.5lb test curve so naturally should leave my Torrix standing.

    I do think that you get an easier line flow with the larger rings although I can’t give a scientific reason behind it.

    As mentioned above those in the know know more than I.

  17. #17
    Site Regular kevan67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    833

    Default

    Taken from a post by Jummyg provides a more technical overview of the differenece between 40 and 50mm butt rings.

    taken from mark tunleys web site.

    Bad Casting

    “A bad workman blames his tools.”
    Or as I like to put it - A bad caster blames his rod.

    A bad cast if often blamed on the rod, but most often it is the user, the weight of lead, the reel, the line, and not the rod. There are two sides to casting: one is the casters technique and the other is the tackle used.
    I've been meaning to write an article for sometime on the subject of casting problems but for one reason or another I had yet to get round to it. That all changed the other day when I had someone come to see me with some serious ‘frapping’ and ‘crack-off’ issues. He placed the blame on the rod rings. Well, I calmly laid up the rod against the positioning gauge and showed him that the rings were in the correct positions and of the right size pattern. I politely invited him out to the casting field, to whack a lead about and to see what the real problems were. It turned out that he wasn't a bad caster, he just had everything going against him. A little problem- with all the factors - added up to one big problem.

    Let me firstly explain what ‘frapping’ is:
    Frapping is sometimes called line slap. It is where the line comes off the reel in a loud slapping, vibrating fashion, cutting down distance massively.
    Frapping, at its extreme, causes ‘crack-offs’ in an instant.
    During a cast the line comes off the reel in the shape of a conical, transverse-vibration wave. If the wave nodes and antinodes are pitched too far apart, then frapping starts - due to the torque set up by the thrown coils.
    Frapping often starts when the cast is released too early. The rod is still under compression, as the line is released from under the finger causing the line to be pulled off the spool - the point of least resistance - and bunches up between the reel and the butt ring. As the lead catches up and proceeds to pull out the line, frapping can occur.

    Let me now explain what ‘crack-offs’ are:
    A crack-off is when the line breaks while we are giving it the 'big un'.
    Most people think it is because the line is too weak, causing it to snap under the pressure of the cast, so they use a shock leader. Now assuming you are using 15 lbs mono or more and a lead of 4oz or less, it is very unlikely that the standard carp-style overhead thumb will snap the line. If the line was to snap under pressure during the casting stroke, it would most likely go straight up and come down close by. If this is happening to you, then use a shock leader and your crack-off problems are sorted.
    Have you noticed though, that when you witness a crack-off, most of the time the damn thing flies straight out further than any cast you have ever made before. This is because the cast was good - right up to the point of release - and then it went wrong. The lead is starting on its way out but something causes the line to snap. That something is extreme frapping. The line, as mentioned earlier, bunches up- due to early release - and tangles around one or more of the rods rings in a split second and as the lead catches up and tries to pull the line out, the line is snapped.

    Let’s deal with the rod as a contributing factor.
    As I said right at the beginning, the rod has little, if anything, to do with frapping and crack-off issues.

    Moving on to the lead.
    Every rod is capable of casting a weight range. If it is too light then the weight wont compress the rod at all, so it becomes very hard to ‘feel’ it in the casting stroke. Release timing is then hard to judge. If the lead is too heavy, the rod is over-compressed - slowing everything down- way too much. There is for every rod, an ideal weight for high speed maximum range casting and an ideal weight for casting every other range.
    Let me explain with a couple of real examples:

    Harrison Torrix 12' 2.50 TC.
    High speed maximum range cast: Ideal weight is 2oz
    All other ranges: Ideal weight is 2.5oz.

    Harrison Torrix 12' 3.25 TC
    High speed maximum range cast: Ideal weight is 3.5oz
    All other ranges: Ideal weight is 4oz.

    You will notice that to cast high speed maximum range, the weight is less than all other casts. This is because the casting stroke is so much quicker. A heavier weight would overload the rod and slow things down. Any less weight, than the ideal one and the casting stroke wont compress the rod enough making it very hard to time the release. It also wont have enough dragging power to pull you line out to the maximum range. The heavier weight loads the rod and feels perfect when casting to closer targets.

    Next, let look at the role of the reel.
    This is going to be controversial and will probably put a lot of ‘backs up', but the fact is that there is an optimum size diameter of spool to work with carp lines of say 15lb mono and the distances between the reel and the butt ring on the rod.
    Now this is going to get very complex so please bear with me.
    Small spools create more line friction than large spools so casting distance is cut down. We all know this to be true, so the opposite must also be true - that the bigger the spool, the less the drag and the greater distance.
    This is true until you factor-in that the line coming off the massive spool is throwing very large coils which creates torque and drag - and can and does -lead to frapping and crack-offs.
    Taking it to the extreme and you have a reel spool the size of a bucket. This would create so much torque in the thrown coils (conical, transverse- vibration wave) that you would need to cast something like a pound of lead to compensate and have the rods butt ring some 15 feet away from the reel. You see we forget that the butt ring on the average 12' carp rod is somewhere around 3'6'' away from the reel spool, so there is actually an optimum size of spool, not too big and not too small.
    The Shimano mini big pits seem to have the ideal size spool.

    "What about a 50mm butt ring Mark," I hear you cry. Well that can make things a little worst again, believe it or not. Fuji often refer to the butt ring, on a rod, as a "chocker ring.” The name says it all, small is best. The reason is that the coils are narrowed down quickly and allow the line to straighten and carry through the rest of the rod rings smoothly. Too big a ring and the conical, transverse-vibration wave can carry on down the rod loosing distance in the cast.

    Show me a carp rod, rung with a 50mm butt ring and a massive-spooled reel - add in an overhead thump cast with an early release - and I'll show you a frap and a crack-off waiting to happen.
    Now don't get me wrong, if you want 50mm rings on your rods, that's fine be me, but add in a massive-spooled reel and you are asking for trouble. If you are frapping away and cracking off while casting like a mad thing and you still don't believe me, then just put on a small-spooled ‘baitrunner’ type reel and watch the difference.

    "How can all the reel makers be wrong Mark," I hear you shout. They're not, they are just selling the customer what he wants to buy. Most so called Big Pit reels that are available are really surf/sea reels dressed up and marketed to us carp boys. The massive spool and heavy construction wasn't designed for long range casting but for huge line capacity for fighting GTs, Tuna, etc - that will strip vast amounts of line in a matter of seconds.

    To Summarise:

    1) Poor release timing with the wrong weight of lead, while using a very large-spooled reel, fitted to a rod with 50mm rings = BAD

    2) Good release timing with the correct weight of lead, while using a medium- spool sized reel, fitted to a rod with smaller rings = GOOD

    Do note though, that the butt ring size is only a small contributor to frapping. It's the other factors that really cause the problems.
    Use a smaller-spooled reel with a good line, get you release timing right, with the correct lead and your frapping days are numbered.

    Mark

  18. #18
    Elite (Gold) JSlinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Bridgnorth
    Posts
    6,572

    Default

    Mark Tunley wrote this and is as I do and have done for 30 year so nothing new to me. I agree with it and my question when speaking with him a few year ago was are 50mms ok he gave me his thoughts at the time and are the same above. My only reason for posting is that a well timed cast can out weigh the potential flaws as mentioned I have used 50mm ring sets and 40s and I do believe that for heavier lines 50mm rings offer some benefits. On the other hand I appreciate the logistics and the necessities as I’ve ised 40s to good effect.

    Ultimately 40mms are more forgiving imo and allows for poor timed casting where as 50 mms enable the better casters to cast further. As I found that returning to 40s hinders the cast and demands more power to achieve the same distance.
    Only my experience and that’s limited in its own right as I am only an interested physicist:hobbiest.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Designed and Developed By: Advanced Web Designs | www.awdltd.co.uk