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Thread: Casting noise issue

  1. #1
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    Default Casting noise issue

    Ok, looking for advice on technique or just in general re the following.

    my current range setup that I use because I get a good cast for me and am comfortable with it and the rods actually play fish nicely is

    Emblem Z, Infinity x 13ft 3lb, 40mm ringing but those stand off ones the infinity's have, 3oz Lead Korda tapered leader (I hate leader knot rattle)

    Now my issue is that I've got some apparently proper casting tools, Zziplex lcd's (40mm non stand off) and with the same reel and line setup and a 3.5oz lead. I feel I'm struggling with getting the best from them, but more than that after release, every time there is a very noisy 'part of a second' where there must be some serious line slap or something going on? enough to sort of make you wince like it definitely shouldn't be happening, so I might be holding back. In comparison the Infinity's are virtually silent?

    I'm thinking of trying a braided leader to reduce the slap (will it?) I think it may be caused by the initial thicker stiffer coils of the mono leader and help load the stiffer rod more?

    Longer term I was considering, stand off ringing or 50mm-16mm but obviously this is a costly exercise.

    Maybe I just need practice with them? the infinity's seem so easy to cast in comparison, but that must be their relative softness/easier release timing?

  2. #2
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    Probably best to send a message to terry Edmonds on face book, I'm sure he has the answer. It could be something to do with the distance of the butt ring from the spool and the size of the spool itself. Some rod and reel combos do this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Russell View Post
    Probably best to send a message to terry Edmonds on face book, I'm sure he has the answer. It could be something to do with the distance of the butt ring from the spool and the size of the spool itself. Some rod and reel combos do this.
    Cheers, I think it may be that too (going to try another reel to see if it varies) so will try messaging him.

    I was going to re ring them but holding fire on that as some 50mm butt rings sets seem very costly? Anyone know of a good supplier let me know (or even a rod builder in the Guildford area would be good)

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    What line are you using? Korda tapered leader to Korda line?

    Softer line will help the slapping issue as it's forced into the cone made by the butt ring.

    **sam**

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    If you turn the rod over have a look at the bottom (nearest to the reel) of the butt ring, are there any marks on it.....?
    Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away

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    taken from mark tunleys web site, might explain a few bits suprafisher

    Bad Casting

    “A bad workman blames his tools.”
    Or as I like to put it - A bad caster blames his rod.

    A bad cast if often blamed on the rod, but most often it is the user, the weight of lead, the reel, the line, and not the rod. There are two sides to casting: one is the casters technique and the other is the tackle used.
    I've been meaning to write an article for sometime on the subject of casting problems but for one reason or another I had yet to get round to it. That all changed the other day when I had someone come to see me with some serious ‘frapping’ and ‘crack-off’ issues. He placed the blame on the rod rings. Well, I calmly laid up the rod against the positioning gauge and showed him that the rings were in the correct positions and of the right size pattern. I politely invited him out to the casting field, to whack a lead about and to see what the real problems were. It turned out that he wasn't a bad caster, he just had everything going against him. A little problem- with all the factors - added up to one big problem.

    Let me firstly explain what ‘frapping’ is:
    Frapping is sometimes called line slap. It is where the line comes off the reel in a loud slapping, vibrating fashion, cutting down distance massively.
    Frapping, at its extreme, causes ‘crack-offs’ in an instant.
    During a cast the line comes off the reel in the shape of a conical, transverse-vibration wave. If the wave nodes and antinodes are pitched too far apart, then frapping starts - due to the torque set up by the thrown coils.
    Frapping often starts when the cast is released too early. The rod is still under compression, as the line is released from under the finger causing the line to be pulled off the spool - the point of least resistance - and bunches up between the reel and the butt ring. As the lead catches up and proceeds to pull out the line, frapping can occur.

    Let me now explain what ‘crack-offs’ are:
    A crack-off is when the line breaks while we are giving it the 'big un'.
    Most people think it is because the line is too weak, causing it to snap under the pressure of the cast, so they use a shock leader. Now assuming you are using 15 lbs mono or more and a lead of 4oz or less, it is very unlikely that the standard carp-style overhead thumb will snap the line. If the line was to snap under pressure during the casting stroke, it would most likely go straight up and come down close by. If this is happening to you, then use a shock leader and your crack-off problems are sorted.
    Have you noticed though, that when you witness a crack-off, most of the time the damn thing flies straight out further than any cast you have ever made before. This is because the cast was good - right up to the point of release - and then it went wrong. The lead is starting on its way out but something causes the line to snap. That something is extreme frapping. The line, as mentioned earlier, bunches up- due to early release - and tangles around one or more of the rods rings in a split second and as the lead catches up and tries to pull the line out, the line is snapped.

    Let’s deal with the rod as a contributing factor.
    As I said right at the beginning, the rod has little, if anything, to do with frapping and crack-off issues.

    Moving on to the lead.
    Every rod is capable of casting a weight range. If it is too light then the weight wont compress the rod at all, so it becomes very hard to ‘feel’ it in the casting stroke. Release timing is then hard to judge. If the lead is too heavy, the rod is over-compressed - slowing everything down- way too much. There is for every rod, an ideal weight for high speed maximum range casting and an ideal weight for casting every other range.
    Let me explain with a couple of real examples:

    Harrison Torrix 12' 2.50 TC.
    High speed maximum range cast: Ideal weight is 2oz
    All other ranges: Ideal weight is 2.5oz.

    Harrison Torrix 12' 3.25 TC
    High speed maximum range cast: Ideal weight is 3.5oz
    All other ranges: Ideal weight is 4oz.

    You will notice that to cast high speed maximum range, the weight is less than all other casts. This is because the casting stroke is so much quicker. A heavier weight would overload the rod and slow things down. Any less weight, than the ideal one and the casting stroke wont compress the rod enough making it very hard to time the release. It also wont have enough dragging power to pull you line out to the maximum range. The heavier weight loads the rod and feels perfect when casting to closer targets.

    Next, let look at the role of the reel.
    This is going to be controversial and will probably put a lot of ‘backs up', but the fact is that there is an optimum size diameter of spool to work with carp lines of say 15lb mono and the distances between the reel and the butt ring on the rod.
    Now this is going to get very complex so please bear with me.
    Small spools create more line friction than large spools so casting distance is cut down. We all know this to be true, so the opposite must also be true - that the bigger the spool, the less the drag and the greater distance.
    This is true until you factor-in that the line coming off the massive spool is throwing very large coils which creates torque and drag - and can and does -lead to frapping and crack-offs.
    Taking it to the extreme and you have a reel spool the size of a bucket. This would create so much torque in the thrown coils (conical, transverse- vibration wave) that you would need to cast something like a pound of lead to compensate and have the rods butt ring some 15 feet away from the reel. You see we forget that the butt ring on the average 12' carp rod is somewhere around 3'6'' away from the reel spool, so there is actually an optimum size of spool, not too big and not too small.
    The Shimano mini big pits seem to have the ideal size spool.

    "What about a 50mm butt ring Mark," I hear you cry. Well that can make things a little worst again, believe it or not. Fuji often refer to the butt ring, on a rod, as a "chocker ring.” The name says it all, small is best. The reason is that the coils are narrowed down quickly and allow the line to straighten and carry through the rest of the rod rings smoothly. Too big a ring and the conical, transverse-vibration wave can carry on down the rod loosing distance in the cast.

    Show me a carp rod, rung with a 50mm butt ring and a massive-spooled reel - add in an overhead thump cast with an early release - and I'll show you a frap and a crack-off waiting to happen.
    Now don't get me wrong, if you want 50mm rings on your rods, that's fine be me, but add in a massive-spooled reel and you are asking for trouble. If you are frapping away and cracking off while casting like a mad thing and you still don't believe me, then just put on a small-spooled ‘baitrunner’ type reel and watch the difference.

    "How can all the reel makers be wrong Mark," I hear you shout. They're not, they are just selling the customer what he wants to buy. Most so called Big Pit reels that are available are really surf/sea reels dressed up and marketed to us carp boys. The massive spool and heavy construction wasn't designed for long range casting but for huge line capacity for fighting GTs, Tuna, etc - that will strip vast amounts of line in a matter of seconds.

    To Summarise:

    1) Poor release timing with the wrong weight of lead, while using a very large-spooled reel, fitted to a rod with 50mm rings = BAD

    2) Good release timing with the correct weight of lead, while using a medium- spool sized reel, fitted to a rod with smaller rings = GOOD

    Do note though, that the butt ring size is only a small contributor to frapping. It's the other factors that really cause the problems.
    Use a smaller-spooled reel with a good line, get you release timing right, with the correct lead and your frapping days are numbered.

    Mark
    should have gone to specsavers!

  7. #7
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    fantastic info Jimmy G thanks for posting, from reading I reckon my release with the stiffer Zziplex's is a major issue and probably not helped at all from switching between the pretty different rods. I've not been getting out much on the bank and the Infinity's I'm very used too casting the Zziplex's far less so and they are much harder for me to compress.

    I think I need to work on the release side of things with these and practice, practice, practice. I think I will add a leader to a SS2600 and try that too just to see how that flies.

    For an earlier poster I'm using the Korda tapered mainline so there is no knot at all but the leader is 30lb (from memory) mono, the korda ones have a very long thick mono section that I cut down as I'm not using it for abrasion resistance but purely casting protection. I think I need to check my line twist too as this must increase the potential for bad frapping, although I've not had a crack off yet and never feel like I will (famous last words) with the Infinity's.

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    Just to follow up, I got some penn 7000's a few months back and the difference is amazing. No clatter and as above I just think the smaller spool and therefore line cones / coils to the butt ring flow better through the 40mm butt rings I have on all my rods. I still need work on my release and technique but I no longer fear or cringe each cast!

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