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marty3
17-02-2005, 12:58
just want to hear peoples veiws on barbed hooks for specimen carp fishing, are they really better than barbless

MattPilky
17-02-2005, 13:00
yep !
if you do a search there's plenty on this topic.

marty3
17-02-2005, 13:00
ok thanx matt

pennywise
17-02-2005, 13:02
i disagree, i think barbed hooks are barbaric.

Mark1chuck
17-02-2005, 13:09
Na, your thinking of barbed trebles for carp fishing.
Now thats barbaric. http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Comus
17-02-2005, 13:12
Barbed for sure.
A couple of waters in the South, known for big fish of a variety of species won't allow Barbless hooks due to the damage caused.

Lewis
17-02-2005, 13:12
Modern barbed hooks are anything but barbaric...... what is barbaric is anglers that dont know how to unhook a fish......

marty3
17-02-2005, 13:14
lol nice one mark, im thinking barbed hooks r alot kinder to the carps mouth, all though i think the carp will dissagree... as the barbless hooks do rip and turn during the fight causing the hook to tear the carps mouth, wheras a barbed hook will go in and stay in, you only got to look at the fish in my local club lake to see this, and r very very strict on a barbless only rule.

marty3
17-02-2005, 13:18
i tottally agree lewis, i think this is why my local club has a barbless rule as 75% of members r the younger generation of anglers and first time anglers, i think there should be classes or skools on how to unhook carp proper and care for them, ive seen some awfull things at my local club, carp bein unhooked on gravel with no mats, 20lb+ carp sliding down the gravel bank back into the lake, kids just littarly throwing big carp back into the pond.

Cash
17-02-2005, 13:19
More fisheries should ban barbless hooks IMO. Well done to the ones that have already.
I NEVER use a barbless hook and won't, I don't want to be responsible for ripping up a carps mouth.
Cash

Ashman
17-02-2005, 13:21
some modern barbed patterns can be tricky to remove tho, espec the short, curved shank type hooks...you have to learn the method...

so barbaric in the hands of the uneducated and inexperienced? almost certainly if they choose to just yank em out http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif

that's why I stopped fishing one of the local waters...fish with no mouths make me feel ill http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Lewis
17-02-2005, 13:24
Do we agree that younsters should necessarily complete some kind of competency course before they are let loose on there own - or would this put new blood entering the sport......

Who would do the courses - who would maintain standards and check those that are giving the training....

but it must be a way forward to alleviate the arguements of the minority of antis....

Ashman
17-02-2005, 13:31
Absolutely agree, but as said- tricky to implement.

It would be great if new members had to attend some form of 'induction' to RMC day/ half day that covered aspects of fish safety (where is safe to fish? what rigs are safe?), handling (on the bank, returning to the water, use of keepnets), care (klinick) and health monitoring (spotting signs of distress, disease, etc).

At least everyone would be aware of the issues then...but prices will rise to pay for it.

Personally I think it is WELL worth it... I love catching, but would stop fishing if I thougt it was at the expensive of the fishes' health.

mubo
17-02-2005, 13:35
totally agree ashman....

MattPilky
17-02-2005, 13:36
Couldn't agree more mate. Think RMC should lead the way and not necessarily for youngsters. Bigger older and stronger adults are just as dangerous.
Can't believe this hasn't been adapted for pike anglers.

Lewis
17-02-2005, 13:36
Other elements to include could be safe snag fishing, litter (including safe disposal of old hooks and line at home), courtesy to other anglers, bankside safety, boat safety (where applicable)... the list is endless.... but protects the fisheries (not just RMC's) assets.....

Ashman
17-02-2005, 13:37
yeah- I was just thinking bankside etiquette as well!

happyhammer
17-02-2005, 13:38
I've got a couple of opinions. While I agree 100% that barbs are kinder to the wellbeing of the fishes mouth, I think that on lakes like my local one, barbless hooks have been a lifesaver to tethered fish. We all know the kind of angler I'm on about, 4 foot of lead core attached to a 25lb hooklength, said angler casts tight to the snags and gets his head down, screamer, lost fish in snag. The barbless hook allows them to get rid. That said, it's not an excuse for bad rigs or careless angling! On my club lake (match orientated committee), hooks are allowed to be barbed in the smaller sizes but I think it's 10's and bigger have to be barbless, as I'm going onto the committee in March this is going to be my first argument as it understandably provokes friction between match/specimen anglers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with barbs until they end up in your finger!

BreamKing
17-02-2005, 13:39
I may be mistaken, but wasn't Arnie the Orchid common tethered on a rig incorporating a barbless hook?

Ashman
17-02-2005, 13:40
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
barbed hooks have been a lifesaver to tethered fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

barbless??

mubo
17-02-2005, 13:41
Why not charge a £10-£15 (conssesions for juniors) one off fee, classes of five or more, give them a card after stating that they have attended an induction coarse on carp saftey?

marty3
17-02-2005, 13:42
thats a very good ideal, i for one would not mind payin a bit more nowing the fishs health would be much better

Mark1chuck
17-02-2005, 13:43
Don't know if barbed or barbless but defo Leadcore.
Oops there goes another debate.

Lewis
17-02-2005, 13:44
Not just carp...... http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

and how about if it was charged with a view to a discount on future tickets..... so that cost is reimbursed after a few years.... and still requires tickets to be bought - so both sides are happy....

Ashman
17-02-2005, 13:45
1. There would need to be a requirement for ALL club anglers to have completed the course.

2. This would put people off joining due to having to fork out an extra £10-15...

Better for this to be part of the joining procedures for the club, and the cost to be reflected in membership fees? That way you aren't limiting new members to those who can see the value of such a course without actually having been on it yet!

Lewis
17-02-2005, 13:46
Safe useage of that could also be included - basically minimum strength mainline and/ safe helicopter IMO.... but as you say - that a whole seperate bag of worms....

happyhammer
17-02-2005, 13:47
And the veteran pike angler raises his hackles.................Matt, why especially pike anglers? Are we any worse than the rest? Like any form of fishing, get it wrong and the fish is at risk be it barbel roach, goldfish, whatever. Sorry in advance if I sound a bit stroppy, I'm not but I do like to defend my own! Even my clubs are intent on making my lakes devoid of my favourite species.

marty3
17-02-2005, 13:47
very good, but would the commitees of said clubs go with it??

Lewis
17-02-2005, 13:48
Dont most clubs have a joining fee?? and why so expensive?? In fact why any cost to the new member at all??

Lewis
17-02-2005, 13:49
Think he was simply refering to them as they are delicate and need special care also....

Ashman
17-02-2005, 13:51
Are pike not extremely sensitive to the stresses of capture? More so than some of the other species anyway?

happyhammer
17-02-2005, 13:51
Sorry ash, my mistake.
BK, I'm not saying every carp will escape but it must help.

marty3
17-02-2005, 13:52
i do believe they are ashman, they do respond the worse to capture more than any other species, so im told by my m8 who is a dedicated pike angler

happyhammer
17-02-2005, 13:57
Couldn't agree more, they dry out quicker, are more vulnerable to damage from dropping and get some dodgy rigs put in front of them, but that's what I thought we were on about. hooks and rigs that is.

MattPilky
17-02-2005, 14:01
hammer,
sorry if it came across that way but pike are the most delicate of all.
They're also one of the easier to catch ( generally!! thats not a dig ) stick a livey on and away you go.
thats why the newcomers need proper tuition on handling etc.
ooh it's got teeth cut the line or use that barbaric gag in it's gob.
There's a good percentage of pike anglers who have no idea how to handle them ( first timers especially ). Thats why I believe that it is paramount to have a proficiency test before they are even allowed to cast in.
They're too easily damaged full stop.

happyhammer
17-02-2005, 14:07
Matt, I agree and that's the same for everyone and every species mate. In reality proficiency courses will never happen but rules could be changed and enforced with a zero tolerance view. RMC already have great pike rules that cover everything right back to proper indication and they're worded clearly. The equipment that they deem as a minimum would keep half the pikers I've had the misfortune to meet at home and that would help tenfold!

MattPilky
17-02-2005, 14:10
agreed hammer rules and baliffing are the cornerstones.
Think we'll have to start a different thread here on the coarse forum!
I think it's even more applicable to pike though.
http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ChrisW
17-02-2005, 14:36
As a relatively newcomer to carp fishing I was quite amazed to see a rule at Thorpe Lea for no 'barbless hooks above size 14'. For someone who has only ever fished on venues with a strict barbless only rule this was a bit confusing as I presumed that barbed hooks were more harmful to the fish - now I know otherwise. Problem is now like some youngsters I am not experienced in unhooking carp from barbs. However unlike some kids I would have the common sense to do it carefully. Interesting post.....

marty3
17-02-2005, 14:40
would anybody bend the rules when fishing a match oriantated club for carp to 30lb+ which has a barbless hook rule, would you do as the club wants you to do, even if it goes against your beliefs, or would you put the carp safety first and risk being banned and use barbed hooks??? comments please. as i am in this situation myself

ChrisW
17-02-2005, 14:42
Why not make the suggestion that the rules are changed and explain why.

jetski
17-02-2005, 14:44
in all honesty i ignore the rules when it says barbless only - never been caught yet despite having club bailiffs help me with the unhooking http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

to me fish welfare comes first and to hell with their ill advised rules

as for trying to explain things and get the rules changed - you'd have more luck addressing the flat earth society http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif

once had an hour long debate with a club secretary who said that the only hooks he would allow had to be manufactured without a barb - would not accept crushed barb http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif

DeanOr
17-02-2005, 14:52
Ignore the rules my friend plead ignorance..

Try getting em to change the rule.. Near impossibility. Heads are well and truly stuck in the sand

Ashman
17-02-2005, 14:53
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
risk being banned and use barbed hooks

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't like the rules, don't fish there.

At the end of the day the owners/ managment have the right to govern how they want you to behave when you are on their property, as well as how you treat their assets- the fish...it is up to them...if you don't agree, you should go elsewhere, if you don't, you deserve a ban no matter how well intentioned you may think you are being.

My opinion anyway http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

marty3
17-02-2005, 14:55
ive tried this chris, i have been to the last 2 agm meetings and many balliff meetings along with other carp anglers who feel the same as i do, and they just wont listen, i mean you only have to look in there match lake to see that the barbless hook rule just aint working at all, it is very sad to see and will continue to upset me, untill they change the rules to at least semi barbed hooks, but all the commiittee members r old and living in the past, so they just wont listen at all, another one of there rules is no braided mainline not even on spod rods or markers???? i ask them the reason why it is banned on markers and they cant answer, i understand it being banned on your fishing rods, as there is no strech and a rod with braid mainline and a barbless hook is a lethal weapon. this is the mentallity of this said club and has proven to us carp anglers they have no ideal what so ever about fishing. some of the commiittee have never even been fishing in there lives, how can you get a rule changed against people like this?? is it imposible and time to move on to another venue, even when there is still a couple of fish you need to catch??

jetski
17-02-2005, 15:04
ashman

i fish on my terms and as such fish welfare is paramount - i know waters where barbed hooks are banned but fixed leads would be ok - also no instistence on unhooking mats etc

as for not liking the rules and therefore fishing elsewhere - that may be fine in the target rich environment of the southeast but up north choices are few and far between http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DeanOr
17-02-2005, 15:08
Ashman

Its a completely different issue with clubs at the end of the day they are our waters.. I pay my money to fish this inturn pays rents etc on the property without members the clubs simply will not run

Sometimes you just have to take a risk and be prepared to face the consequences

marty3
17-02-2005, 15:16
this is same as my club jetski, we also tried to get un hooking mats must be used on all fish as a rule, as ive said before ive seen people unhookin carp on gravel, and this is ok as far as the club is concerend but barbed hooks aint? http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif the commiittee just say this rule (unhooking mats) would be very inconvinent for match anglers, as they unhook fish on there laps, and ive seen them do it too, the carp is in the net with its pecks all bent backwards and then thrown in a keepnet, id like to see them unhook a 20lb+ carp in the net on there lap..
i think i will continue to use barbed hooks on this said club as my beliefs and many many others r more beneficial to the carp, which at the end of the day the carp come first. right?

Ashman
17-02-2005, 15:38
Dean

I hear you: but being a member of RMC is like being a customer? It is quite specifically not 'our' water, it belongs to the owners of the lakes...

I see where you are coming from in terms of funding the clubs, but in legal terms I don't think it makes any difference...they own the place full stop, you are NOT renting it from them like a lease, and do not obtain any form of ownership by paying fees.

It would be lovely, no- brilliantly pukka if we did...I can think of a few things I'd like to change! But in terms of making the rules, the owners have the final say, and if they say don't do it, you shouldn't, and should expect them to kick you out when you are caught...

I think of it like letting people in your garden...you let them in at your discretion, and under condition that they agree to abide by any rules you have. If one of em then decides to start cutting down your hedge, you would be pi$$ed-- it is your asset, on your land, and as such if you don't want someone cutting it down, it's up to you and they should expect to be punished!

Private syndicates however, I think are a lot closer to what you are saying, and in this situation I think the members would discuss the 'agreed' rules between them (if any!), which would allow disagreements to be voiced/ resolved.

At the end of the day I respect what you are saying:

Fish welfare is more important than not breaking rules...agreed, and I think I'd just go elsewhere. If you stay you are only encouraging the rules anyway, let alone the actions of the other anlglers there

However, if you don't agree with the rules, you shouldn't join, and by default agree to abide by them when you fully intend to break em...not if you don't want hassle anyway http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

DeanOr
17-02-2005, 15:55
Fair! I agree Ashman RMC have it right.. A few clubs do. In my eyes i am pulling off a small stroke but not to help my own back but to protect the stocks in general for the club. These sorts of places just dont want to listen and change is certainly not a good thing..

I couldnt personally say yes to Barbless IMO cause a lot of trouble seen it before my eyes on a few waters now but people just seem blinkered

Ashman
17-02-2005, 15:59
Yup, it was a good day that the rules changed to barbed only http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

stomp
17-02-2005, 20:12
bend em i say ! the rules that is ,not your hooks http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif only when its in the fishes best interest ofcourse http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

cypry49
17-02-2005, 21:11
and dont 4 get barbless hooks do more damage

marty3
17-02-2005, 21:15
yea i know they do m8, i will allways use barbed hooks regardless of what my stupid local club rules are. i will allways put the carps health before anything else.

cypry49
17-02-2005, 21:44
carp saftey first ............anglers second .....and the rest??????????

stomp
17-02-2005, 22:52
hook and hold not hook and tear!! its been been proved common sense !! seems a bit slow to reach some regions it seems??

marty3
18-02-2005, 14:20
i dont think my club will ever change the rules

ChrisW
18-02-2005, 14:27
I just joined a local club, havent fished the waters yet but checked the rules last night and they stated barbless hooks only unless fishing for specimen carp. I think this may be the ruling that you are looking for??
However it still has some doubt for example one of the lakes contains some very big tench, if you were fishing for them on barbless and happened to get a take from a big carp where do you stand then? Just nothing you can do about it really. Its what they call in the trade as a grey area!

Mark4
18-02-2005, 17:01
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I NEVER use a barbless hook and won't, I don't want to be responsible for ripping up a carps mouth.
Cash


[/ QUOTE ]
Trying not to be too personal here!! - hitting someone's wallet tells the truth. Shall I pop down my local tackle shop and buy a certain brand of Barbless Hooks http://www.rmcangling.co.uk/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Cash
18-02-2005, 17:12
Of course if that's what you want to do. It doesn't effect me.
It's on your conscience not mine, I don't use hooks that could damage a mouth!
Cash

Mark4
18-02-2005, 17:47
Just trying to say that supplying something does have a certain responsibility for what happens after.

JohnC
18-02-2005, 19:12
Ive seen this argument re. barbless/barbed hooks before and can never understand how a sane person can say a hook of one sort or another does more damage! Surely it is the prevalance of ` distance casting-rods` in the hands of `bullies` causing the damage? Regards JohnC.

Cash
19-02-2005, 06:48
Mark,
It's MY personal opinion, not the company that I work for! BIG difference.
Cash