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Blonde_Tim
11-11-2009, 09:43
hi all.

as above. ideally an electronic version. old fox micron p et back biter etc WHY?

failing that, i may look at standard drop off indicators to use with a front alarm.

many thanks

Tim

Panander
11-11-2009, 12:14
If all you ever do is deadbait then make your own. Sensitivity wise they are extremely good.

If you livebait then these will be too sensitive but I can recommend Billys Backbiters instead.

http://www.42inch.net/tackle/bite_alarms/alarms2.htm

lyndon
11-11-2009, 16:37
Tim, Go with the Billys back biters mate. Bomb proof and excellent servcie from Steve Bown. Google them you won't regret it. Best drop off alarm I have every used and I have had them all mate believe me.

Panander
11-11-2009, 16:41
I have had them all mate believe me.

Even cord arms? :)

lyndon
11-11-2009, 16:42
Oh yes using the clothes peg to keep the tension on them. AVA's, ET,s Getto blasters the lot. To be fair the cord alarms are good for sensitivity, but find them a little too sensitive. Much prefer Billys combined with front alarms. If I miss the first bleep or two from the front alarm the billys fill me in on the rest.

Panander
11-11-2009, 17:14
Oh yes using the clothes peg to keep the tension on them.

Nice to know the idea spread .... It is something I started doing in 1992 in the Lake District to improve sensitivity whilst after Ferox.

That aside I agree the BB's are good but they do have the inbuilt sensitivity killer of the rigid arm. Good foir liveys though and the only decent production rear alarm on the market.

In what way do you find the cord arms over sensitive?

squimp
11-11-2009, 17:59
Never heard of cord alarms until now - just googled them and found a fascinating article.

Thanks for the heads up guys. Might be just the job for zander.....

lyndon
12-11-2009, 09:48
Nice to know the idea spread .... It is something I started doing in 1992 in the Lake District to improve sensitivity whilst after Ferox.

That aside I agree the BB's are good but they do have the inbuilt sensitivity killer of the rigid arm. Good foir liveys though and the only decent production rear alarm on the market.

In what way do you find the cord arms over sensitive?

If fishing waters like I am atm large open gravel pits and waters with Ski clubs on them you can't keep the tension on them owing to the large waves that keep battering the margins and keep setting the alarms off every few seconds. If you have a soulution I would be most interested. I haven't currently got any Cord alarms having got rid moons ago but not adverse to making some more.

Phil Adams
12-11-2009, 10:31
As an occasional pike angler can I ask a question please???
I'll take that as a yes then:
Why is a drop off alarm a better set up than a carp type alarm and bobbin?
Can someone explain to a numpty where the difference is and how the drop off works please. Is it so there is no resistance after the initial pick up?
Thanks
Phil

Paul_the_Bailiff
12-11-2009, 10:42
As an occasional pike angler can I ask a question please???
I'll take that as a yes then:
Why is a drop off alarm a better set up than a carp type alarm and bobbin?
Can someone explain to a numpty where the difference is and how the drop off works please. Is it so there is no resistance after the initial pick up?
Thanks
Phil

Drop arms are superior to alarms and bobbins in that once the line has been pulled from the clip there is no resistance to a taking fish.

A drop arm indicator is fixed to the rear rest and the indicator head is fixed to an tight'ish line bellow the reel spool with the bail arm open.

My personal indication set up includes a Delkim on the front rest with the sensitivity set to the maximum the conditions will allow and a drop arm buzzer on the rear rest set up as above. Often this set up is also used with a pencil float if fishing deadbaits within reasonable casting range.

lyndon
12-11-2009, 10:48
Drop arms are superior to alarms and bobbins in that once the line has been pulled from the clip there is no resistance to a taking fish.

A drop arm indicator is fixed to the rear rest and the indicator head is fixed to an tight'ish line bellow the reel spool with the bail arm open.

My personal indication set up includes a Delkim on the front rest with the sensitivity set to the maximum the conditions will allow and a drop arm buzzer on the rear rest set up as above. Often this set up is also used with a pencil float if fishing deadbaits within reasonable casting range.

What he says !!

Phil Adams
12-11-2009, 10:51
Thank you, sorry I hijacked the thread though!

Panander
12-11-2009, 12:04
If fishing waters like I am atm large open gravel pits and waters with Ski clubs on them you can't keep the tension on them owing to the large waves that keep battering the margins and keep setting the alarms off every few seconds. If you have a soulution I would be most interested. I haven't currently got any Cord alarms having got rid moons ago but not adverse to making some more.

Should probably go into the Predator section really I suppose but .....

I have been making and using cord arms for years and I and others have used them all over the Lake District and the highlands of Scotland. I do not believe you can get rougher water then the west bank of Windermere, pre speed limit where ski, wakeboard, ocean going cruisers and general tourist and pleasure craft would move at speed thirty or so yards out. The wash was incredible. Then there is the general rough weather of water where the wind can build up a swell over miles of water so when it hits you it can be over 2ft high. That is rough water. I have used these on Sonning years ago (when Bob Williams was RO at Reading) - at the top end where there was skiing. At all times ... and this isn't only me using them remember ... they have never been sensitive to waves, wash and general weather. They just do not work that way.

Firstly .... they are only good for deadbaiting. If you are using livebaits then they are simply too sensitive.

Now if you cast a legered bait out and tighten up to it a number of things can happen. Forget about bait and pike for a moment and consider only the set up to your lead. If there is any wind or movement in the water it will always put pressure on the line making it tighter - NEVER slacker. If the wind and waves are moving your lead then it is not heavy enough and no bite alarm system will cope wth that. All of them, be they front or rear require that the lead stays where you put it. Even if you freeline a bait, decent bite indication needs that bait to stay put until something moves it. Do you agree with this?

So if waves and wind and wash are setting off a cord arm alarm it can only mean that the lead is moving about on the bottom which means that you need to fish heavier.

Of course it may well be that you are float legering - in which case you need to maintain tension between the float and the alarm. I float leger at times (very rarely I have to say) and as long as there is tension between the float and the alarm there is never a problem.

So ... how does a cord arm work? The cord of the cord arm is there simply to connect the line clip to the microswitch. This means that any movement on the line is immediately transmitted to the switch. A rigid arm moves through an arc - the longer the arm the bigger the arc, the greater amount of movement needed to trigger the switch so to have the line connected just to the switch cuts out any arcs and excessive movement straight away. As the line from the rod to the lead is under tension the alarm is held in the off position. Any further tension will only hold the switch in the off position harder. The wind can blow really hard, the waves can be huge, the boat wash can be monstrous but all it will do is place more tension on the line - therefore the alarm can only stay silent in such circumstances. As setting up any pike alarm, be it front or back, is all about detecting drop backs as runs can be indicated by anything, it makes sense to have an alarm that will detect a reduction in tension very easily. Now any reduction in tension using a cord arm that will allow the switch to go on is enough to make it sound. In slack water conditions .... that is when it is calm and with no wind or undertow you can set it up to sound with as little as a millimeter of movement. This is all well and good but rarely are conditions that perfect. Also things like undertow, winds, waves etc create tension. This means that, if say the undertow is severe and you get a slight dropback it is possible that the reduction in tension in that drop back will be taken up by the undertow holding the swiatch in the off position. This brings me to the elastic.

I was fishing for Ferox on a water with severe undertow plus huge waves and open to the wind. Ferox can be very gentle mouthers of the bait at times so you need very sensitive alarms to show this. I hade been using elastic off the switch arm for a while to increase the sensitivity and found that if I increased the amount of pull on the switch it could overcome any amount of pressure being put on the line by excessive undertow. This means that the line is quite taut and the moment the lead moves a tad there is a very slight reduction in tension that is immediately grabbed by the elastic pulling the switch arm down. The alarm sounds - nothing appears to have moved, the line is still taut but the alarm is sounding - most takes are like this. Any time the alrm sounds then turns off a moment later it is always a fish. Now many people say that a Delkim would show such a take but the Delk will also indicate the rain, the hail, the wind, a piece of crud on the line etc. I have tried them and found that, as with all front alarms, one beep indicating a pick up sounds exactly the same as the beep indicating a piece of weed on the line being hit by the waves. They cry wolf a lot! The plus side of the rear alarm is that they stay on meaning you have to do something about it.

So .... if your cord arms were going off in choppy conditions you have them setup incorrectly - pure and simple. They aren't difficult at all to setup so I have no idea how you went wrong. You cast out, tighten up and put the clip on. Thats it. As long as the alarm isn't sounding it is working. Ifg your line is too slack then it will sound but as I have already pointed out it can only get tighter when the conditions worsen. Of course conditions can improve - one swim on Windermere has an incredible tow on it when the wind blows directly into one bay. You can cast out 50yards and the bait will hit the bottom, about 40ft down, about 30 yards to the left of where it actually hit the water. Th elastic overcomes this easily though but, if the wind drops even a bit to reduce the tow all four of my alarms would sound within moments of each other. That is about the only instance I have experienced where the conditions affect them.

Tell me ... when you used them did you use weighted bobbins on them? If you did then that is wrong. They don't need actual bobbins and any you use should be as light as possible and purely as a sighting thing.

mesac_god
12-11-2009, 13:07
I like those will be sourcing the parts on google just unsure where to get the speakers from would like something like the neville ones ?? lastly has anyone added a volume control or jack plug to use with attx see the circuits are quite basic but sure i could be done anyone ????



If all you ever do is deadbait then make your own. Sensitivity wise they are extremely good.

If you livebait then these will be too sensitive but I can recommend Billys Backbiters instead.

http://www.42inch.net/tackle/bite_alarms/alarms2.htm

Panander
12-11-2009, 13:19
I like those will be sourcing the parts on google just unsure where to get the speakers from would like something like the neville ones ?? lastly has anyone added a volume control or jack plug to use with attx see the circuits are quite basic but sure i could be done anyone ????


I have supplied the Maplin part numbers.

I use the ATTx V2 system on mine. Easy to do. Use 3.5mm dongles and just add a 3.5mm jack. When wired in across the piezo speaker it will cut that off sending the voltage to the dongle instead.

Very useful as it adds latching and a volume control.

Please bear in mind that they were originally made to be as loud as possible to overcome the noise of a gale and waves hitting a shale beach - it gets very noisy on glacials. Volume control on the basic model is a piece of electrical tape over the sound hole which quietens it quite a bit!

Of course these are the quiet ones anyway. My loudest were 24volt and were rated at 120db at 12" (which hurts!) :)

This is one of my four happily staying silent today!

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/Dame_Celia/cordarm.jpg

mesac_god
12-11-2009, 13:26
Top man

cheers always found maplins convenient but expensive mate



I have supplied the Maplin part numbers.

I use the ATTx V2 system on mine. Easy to do. Use 3.5mm dongles and just add a 3.5mm jack. When wired in across the piezo speaker it will cut that off sending the voltage to the dongle instead.

Very useful as it adds latching and a volume control.

Please bear in mind that they were originally made to be as loud as possible to overcome the noise of a gale and waves hitting a shale beach - it gets very noisy on glacials. Volume control on the basic model is a piece of electrical tape over the sound hole which quietens it quite a bit!

Of course these are the quiet ones anyway. My loudest were 24volt and were rated at 120db at 12" (which hurts!) :)

rhornegold
12-11-2009, 16:17
Does anyone have the Old Mick Willis drop off indicator ?

I picked up my towel last night and inadvertanly trough one of my M W drop offs into the middle of the Relief ?

Don't ask, it must be my age !!

Bob

lyndon
12-11-2009, 23:46
Pander, thanks for the lengthy but interesting insructions. When I used them it was many moons ago when I first got seriously into Pike fishing and everything I was being told was about making sure there was little or not resistance to a taking fish. If I remember rightly I was using ssg shot on the trace without any further wieght and therefore most probably the route cause of my trouble. I very quickly changed over to AVA's after this and so never wnet back to Cords. However my curiosity has been awakened and I might just have to make me some. I didn't make the originals I had I inherited them from a mate.

mr_penetrator
13-11-2009, 11:23
Phil, another not yet mentioned advantage of drop off alarms is that the constant alarm forces the angler to get off his chair and attend to it. Too many times i've seen pike deep hooked through anglers ignoring single beeps

Panander
13-11-2009, 11:29
Phil, another not yet mentioned advantage of drop off alarms is that the constant alarm forces the angler to get off his chair and attend to it. Too many times i've seen pike deep hooked through anglers ignoring single beeps

Amen ....

lyndon
13-11-2009, 12:14
I see in your picture your using gardening wire to tension the elastic. Is that better than the peg or just easier ?.

Panander
13-11-2009, 13:22
I see in your picture your using gardening wire to tension the elastic. Is that better than the peg or just easier ?.

Its neater. I can slide that up and down the bankstick very easily to adjust the tension. Each of mybanksticks has that piece on them so the alarms can be fitted on any of them. It also looks less Heath Robinson.

john the boy
15-11-2009, 19:10
ive a few

old ET's and the original blue nose from billys

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z41/noodle996/DSC00549.jpg

the middle arm is the original ET, and the right hand one is modified and works better